Along The Seam, Episode 23
Freddy Mutanguha
INTRO
Hey Everyone. Welcome to Along The Seam. I’m Rachael Cerrotti.
A couple years ago, I was invited to join the board of Aegis Trust. Aegis Trust is an international organization dedicated to preventing genocide and mass atrocities worldwide, but much of their work is in Rwanda which endured a horrific genocide 30 years ago. In 1994, roughly a million Rwandans were killed in just 100 days.
My first time to Rwanda was in fall 2022 and although I was only there for a short three days, my trip left a profound impact on me. I was introduced to Aegis’ peace education program and to a community of perpetrators and victims who were recovering together. That’s what my guest, Freddy Mutanguha, and I are talking about today: what does it take for neighbors to heal?
Freddy is the CEO of Aegis Trust and the Director of the Kigali Genocide Memorial. He has led the development of the Aegis’ peace education programme in Rwanda and is now taking that work beyond the borders of his own country to other areas at risk. This includes the Central Africa Republic, South Sudan and Kenya. Freddy is deeply passionate about the importance of forgiveness in post-conflict reconstruction. He helped found Rwanda’s student survivors association and was the vice-President of IBUKA which is the national umbrella association for Rwandan genocide survivors.
Freddy himself is a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsis. He was a teenager in 1994 when his parents and most of his siblings were killed. In this conversation, we don’t talk much about his memories of that time, but there are lots of links on our website to learn more about his story.
I am deeply grateful to learn from Freddy’s leadership in this field of peace and reconciliation. From my American perspective, we have a lot to learn from him and the Rwandan community.
This conversation with Freddy Mutanguha was recorded on January 12, 2024. He was in Kigali, Rwanda and I was in Portland, Maine.
CONVERSATION
Rachael: You were born in Burundi to parents who were Rwandan. And from what I understand, they were refugees there in Burundi.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And so I'm wondering if you could share a bit about their history.
Freddy: My parents were refugees in Burundi because of hatreds, because of discrimination. They were deprived of human basic lives. This is actually started since the arrival of umm colonial masters who came to Rwanda. It's a country that's been colonized first by German and the First World War, the country, when Germany lost their territories, the Belgians took over. Belgians actually took Rwanda and Burundi and the Congo at the same time. But the colonial masters, when they arrived in Rwanda, they find Rwandans are really a very solid and very cohesive society. And historically it’s a country that inhabited by three categories of people - the Hutus who are the farmers and the Tutsi, the pastoralist and cattle herders, and the Twa who are actually living by food gathering and also they're very good artists. But at the same time their lifestyle was completely different from Hutus and Tutsis. But they all had really complementarity between them and in their lives. We didn't have Tutsi language or Hutu language. We were actually having one language, one culture, one, ritual. We all had the same belief and the myth. So we were one people. And this actually been very, very, not something that the colonialists appreciated because they wanted to impose the culture. They want to impose the Christianity because when they came, the white priest came also at the same time. And what the colonialists did is to impose the divide and rule politics. So they start trying to favor one group. They started with the Tutsis. They even say that the Tutsi are not Rwandans. They introduce the hamitic ideology, saying that Rwandans are people who came from Ethiopia and all Abyssinia and all different places of the Eastern world. But they were even saying that the, even the Hutus, they are people who looked like people from Western Africa. So at some point they made this country no-man land because no one belong here. And this was not true. It is a theory that's really baseless because there's no research was made.
Rachael: And we're talking like pre-World War II, right?
Freddy: Pre World War II. And leading to Second World War, the colonialists actually build up this hatred by favoring one group and make another group actually hate them. Because the king refused to baptized, but also to follow the rules because we want to keep our culture. We want to respect everyone’s culture and their language and the fact that the king was not baptized, they say that the Tutsis, their enemies of the Belgians and they overthrown him. The King was chased out of the country to Congo. His son who replaced him and who accepted to baptize also was killed in 1959. And then to say that we killed the king but also all the Tutsis, either they have to be chased out of the country or been killed. And then they convince the Hutus who are farmers to turn back to them and go actually take machete and start killing them. They changed the kingdom to republic. And this was since ‘59. And then since then, the Tutsi have been persecuted. The Tutsi have been accused to be the enemies of the country. They’ve been blamed on any problems in the country. And then this harmony, this cohesion and this social fabric was completely destroyed. And my family had been also threatened to be killed. My father who was a little boy at that time in ‘59, he managed to go to study in the seminary. And after that he was not allowed to be a priest, but he was given a job and at the end was working for the church library. So, in 1973, when the former president of the republic took power by coup. And he was very, very extremists. And they organized to kill mainly the Tutsis starting from those who are educated. So my father was advised to leave the country. My mother joined him through, Goma, Congo. and they crossed to Bukavu and Uvira and joined my father in Burundi. So they married and I was born in 1976. And my mother and my father, they made two children: myself and my sister. And a few years later, my dad died. And because the refugee life was not easy for my mom and raising two kids without husband, so she decided to cross the border and come back to Rwanda. And this was a big struggle again because people were not allowed to come back. But, her family - her mom, dad and sisters and brothers - They were still living in the country. So she said that I need to join my family. So we came back. My mom, my sister and myself. We came back in ‘79 to Rwanda. And my mother, when she got back to her family, she got married again. And she made four kids - four sisters - and we were six together. And then during genocide, they killed my mother, my stepfather and then actually the four kids they made together. The four sisters.
Rachael: You know, a lot of this conversation is going to be quite heavy because we're going to talk about genocide and how discrimination turns to persecution, turns to violence. But with all that heaviness, we're also going to talk about joy.
Freddy: Yes.
Rachael: And so I would love for you to share with me a memory of your childhood that brings you some joy. What was some of the happiness of your young life with your family?
Freddy: Many things. I remember how much they used to have at different games and the conversation with our parents actually was full of humor. And I like football and I still today. And when I was selected to be a football player for our area, I was very young. That time I was around 12. I had really, really performed very well with football. Everybody knew who I am. And everyone talking about my name. And that really brought joy to me. So football was my way to get joy and my mom and my sisters and stepfather actually enjoyed of course to come to see how I play football. And they were so proud of me. And after the football match, I really, really enjoyed how I straight ran to either my sister, either my mom, to hug them and say, ‘well done, my son.’ so something that I was so, so happy about this one. And then I think this is really something that I will never forget, how close to each other as a family.
Rachael: I know that you went to school and you had friends from different backgrounds, and there was discrimination at this time, as you had mentioned, against the Tutsis. And this discrimination was built on a very long history of division that, you know, as you told us, was very much created by colonialism. And, you know, I have to say, one of the things that struck me most when I started learning about that history was when I was in the museum in Kigali, learning about the genocide and seeing pictures of, I believe it was the Belgians and correct me if I'm wrong, measuring people's noses.
Freddy: Yep.
Rachael: Photographs of that. And I mean that imagery is, you know, as a grandchild of a Holocaust survivor like that is one of the early images of discrimination against Jews. Was this –
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: you know, racial check in. Like, all your physical body parts the right length, the right volume, the right look, the right color?
Freddy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Rachael: I mean, this is around the same time period. But that was just something that in my Holocaust education, I was not ever taught that, you know, other places in the world we're having this very similar type of diagnostics tests almost
Freddy: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes
Rachael: I don't know if that's the right word to use, but this assessment of your physicality.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: So we know that that started early on. And so now you're in school in the 80s and 90s, and I'm wondering if you were aware of this discrimination at that time, right. Looking back, we can understand that. But as a child, did you feel it or did things feel fine. Like, how would you describe the emotion around that?
Freddy: Definitely at the beginning, we didn't really understand what is going on. Talking at the time was in grade two where even at school in Rwanda, we had identity card, and then your children had to have, like, a student card. And each and every document of Rwandan, it had to be written whether you're Tutsi or you Hutu or Twa. So identification was very easy. As a young kid, we really didn't know because we live together with the Hutu kids. But this hatred was visible and was really clear and the discrimination and hatred in the schools. Even at the school, they have to ask you who you are and what ethnic group you belong to. And then this was used really to make sure that even the Hutu children and Tutsi children, they know who they are and this is done by teachers. I remember the time I was in the classroom and it was in the morning and then one of the teacher, she came in the classroom and said, I want the Tutsis to stand up. And I remember that, I didn't know what to do and say am I tutsi or am I Hutu or something. And then when I hesitated and she called my name and say, I know your Tutsi, please stand up. And I stood up and like I was, okay, um, what is going to happen? And she made all comment as Tutsi, you’re enemies of the country, you’re really bad people and your snakes. And she called all the names, your cockroaches, your snakes, your – imagine telling children and telling them those actually words. And we were all crying. We were really, really crying. And we went back home. And my mother was a teacher in the same school. And I went to her in the evening and say, why did we become Tutsi. Tutsi are being very bad people and we should change. And she didn't know what to answer to me. She was, she didn't have an answer. So, that's how I start to understand - I didn't really understand that time. I was so convinced that I was very bad people at that time. That kind of discrimination and try to divide students even in the classroom because the next morning the kids were not talking to us. You know, it was like a suspicious situation. And we'd been playing football together. We’d been doing all the games together. And now we start actually forming our own group, which was really, really, very, very bad. Even the textbooks, they were even teaching violence. Even trying to illustrate how the Tutsi are not actually good people. In the lesson of our history, they were actually saying how the Tutsi they'd been colonizing the Hutus and they've been really a curse of the country. And this was taught in the schools. And because they were saying that each and every problem of the country, they were all blamed to the Tutsis that they have taken the whole worth of the country. And then that's why the Hutus do not really have a good life. And this was really part of what the school they were teaching and again, you can see the hatred outside as well, because our parents have been beaten for nothing. And then those who beat them, those who do bad to our parents and our neighbors, they were not punished. Kind of impunity to those who actually do anything to the Tutsis. That hostility which was very, very visible in our communities as well.
Rachael: I don't know if you would know the answer to this, but why on that day did that teacher decide to do that? Was it mandated or was it her emotions taking over? Because you said your mother was a teacher in the same school.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And if your mother held a different identity, she was Tutsi. My guess is she's not dividing the class in that way. So do you know what was behind that on that specific day?
Freddy: Was kind of a policy because as she was doing it, many, many teachers had been doing it. Of course, my mom didn't want to do it. But this act of calling student to stand up and then you make all the comments. It had been done in all corners of the country. So that mean every teacher had been asked to do it to make sure that kids of the Hutus can see it. Even today our colleagues still remember that and then this is exactly how stuck in our - in our mind because it was awful. And then at the same time was even showing the kids that they should not really have that relationship. But as well, um, so many teachers who didn't follow it and the other kids actually, who didn't experience it. But when you get from one grade to another one, you meet this policy in the grade above.
Rachael: So this was your primary school education. And then just moving forward in your life, you ended up going to secondary school, which we might understand as like a high school.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: Which you went to a boarding school that was primarily for girls. And we won't go into that, but I know that you kind of had to figure out your own way there and figure out where you're going to sleep and how to integrate.
Freddy: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachael: So I'm seeing this theme in your life where you have all these sisters
Freddy: Yes
Rachael: And then you go to a secondary school with all these girls.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: Probably brought some gentleness to your soul. Umm, but I want to spend a lot of time today talking about education because right now that's a huge part of your work is peace education. But to get there we need to move through the genocide. So I'm just going to give a little bit of background for our listeners who might not be familiar with some of the details, and please jump in. Um, the Rwandan genocide against the Tutsis, which is the full way of saying it, right?
Freddy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rachael: We don't just say the genocide
Freddy: Yeah. Against the Tutsis. Yeah.
Rachael: Began on April 7th, 1994, and this was a day after the Rwandan president's plane was shot down and he was assassinated. And you've said that when you first heard the news, you thought this might be a good thing because there was so much discrimination under his leadership
Freddy: Yeah, yeah.
Rachael: And he was Hutu, that maybe things would get better now. Um, and forgive me, I'm feeling very insecure about his name because I don't know how to pronounce it.
Freddy: Habyarimana.
Rachael: Just a little bit about him, because I think it's important that he actually came to power by overthrowing Rwanda's first president in a coup in 1973.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And then he was very much a dictator and accused of election fraud because in all of the, quote-unquote, elections that happened in the country under his leadership, he was getting like 98-99 percentage of the vote.
Freddy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rachael: which we know that's not how populations work. But probably what's most important and relevant in terms of understanding history under his leadership was that there was this real strengthening of the foundation of othering.
Freddy: Yeah, yeah.
Rachael: So when his plane was shot down and he was assassinated, it took the ethnic tensions to a place of genocide and not just discrimination. And his supporters had already been extremists. They had become extremists under his leadership. And they just started murdering people. Like just straight up murdering people of Tutsi descent, like, indiscriminately. And so being Tutsi. And I don't know if in Africa you would call it this, but from my American perspective, it seems like being Tutsi was a racial issue.
Freddy: Mmhmm
Rachael: Is that a word that would be used there? That it would be a racial issue? Because, you know, oftentimes here we use that for people of different skin colors. And from European history, there were racial issues of people who are all white. So I'm wondering would that be correct language?
Freddy: The Belgians made our differences racial but was not. Was really not before that, but because of people living their completely different lifestyle and it become those who are farmers, those are pastoralists, that took it as a racial issue but was not because these all characteristic of racial identification is completely not adding up to make that our people racial issues.
Rachael: I think the reason it's important to understand that is that because if you turn something into a racial issue –
Freddy: Yeah
Rachael: it means that it's a fixed identity.
Freddy: Exactly. They made it their way that you cannot leave it. Yeah.
Rachael: So in just 100 days, roughly a million Rwandans were killed
Freddy: Yeah
Rachael: in this absolutely horrific type of killings.
Freddy: Yeah
Rachael: And majority of that were members of the Tutsi minority, but also some Hutus who were more moderate or maybe married to members of the Tutsi community. So that's a little bit of background. Is there anything that you feel like is really important to understand, or does that feel like a good, comprehensive overview for someone who might not know much about that genocide?
Freddy: Yeah. You spoke about Habyarimana regime and all discrimination and hatred that's come under his leadership. So that discrimination had been institutionalized by himself when he came to power. When he made a coup to President Grégoire Kayibanda, he was blaming him that he discriminates a lot and doesn't give people's freedom. And there is an economy issue. And things he was blaming him and when he went to power, he have done it in very clever way - institutionalized discrimination - because he made one sided army for, for example. The soldiers and army was made up ofHutus with a few element of Tutsis. There's a politics of not actually allowing the Tutsis to go to school. The highest you can get as a Tutsi was actually getting into primary school and then when you finished primary school, you had to go home and then it was so difficult to go to the following level. Going to high school was really a privilege at that time or you have to give a lot of corruptions to get your kids to a high school.
Rachael: So you go into this boarding school. This was rare. That was unusual.
Freddy: The difference here, actually, on my time, was Habyarimana when he came to power, we didn't have a multiparty system here. The ruling party was just one party. And in 1990s with the pressure of international community and also actually he accepted to have multi-parties. And then the parties actually shared, they share the power and the Minister of Education become, actually was led by someone from a different party than the president party. That time with that small change, the Tutsis which actually was exactly the time I was finishing my primary school, the Tutsis was allowed to go to school. But those who were before us, including our parents, they were not actually allowed to go to school. It was so rare. But myself, I was lucky because I finished my primary school at the time another political party leader was leading the ministry.
Rachael: I've heard you use the word lucky quite a bit when you talk about your story and particularly your experience during the hundred days of the genocide. And in the start of that, you actually spent the first week being hidden by a Hutu friend that you went to primary school with, right? A man named Jean Pierre.
Freddy: Yeah, yeah.
Rachael: And really because of him being willing to hide you in his home, you would become one of the only survivors in your village. And of your family it was only you and your younger sister -
Freddy: Yeah
Rachael: one of your younger sisters who survived. And I mean, I'm not going to recount the details of your story on your behalf.
Freddy: Yes.
Rachael: I've listened to them. They're horrifying. But I will share that while you were hiding in your home, you heard your family be murdered.
Freddy: Yeah. You’re Right.
Rachael: In those few months, you would hide, you would save yourself. You were reunited with your sister along the way. You would - carried a false ID at one point that said you were Hutu. You told lies about your background in very smart ways
Freddy: Yes
Rachael: that just kind of came to you.
Freddy: Yes
Rachael: And then even as a result of some of those, those lies about your identity, you would end up living in a refugee camp of Hutu perpetrators.
Freddy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Rachael: And I kind of want to stop on that experience. And I apologize for kind of quickly moving through
Freddy: No no no
Rachael: a lot of other trauma and pain. But I think what strikes me about that, and I've heard you talk a little bit about this experience, was there was even I think it was the French army that came in and said to all the Hutu refugees in this camp, don't worry, you're safe now. And you know, today we hear the word refugee camp and it's immediate empathy, right. that these people are fleeing from something. And you're here having this experience, that it's a refugee camp, but these are the perpetrators.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And if they were to find out who you actually were, you would have been killed immediately. And I just, I'm so curious how you sit with that.
Freddy: I was among the killers. And I didn't have a choice because when I was hiding close to my house in my village, everyone knows - knew me and I had to leave and go very far away where I was, nobody actually knew me and I can made up the stories that you heard. And it was so dangerous because even if they don't know you, they can see you have fear and you don't have the same conversation as like they do. And it's very easy to identify who you are. We had to hide that we have fear and retain our feelings and have to smile, even if it's a fake smile. But we have to make sure that no one identify us as someone who infiltrated into the killers. Can you imagine when you listen to someone talking how he or she killed so many people and also talking how the way they killed them and I was about to cry, but at the same time I say, if I cry here, everyone will say, why are you show the empathy to the victims and to the people who are killed? And then the people started questioning about you. You have to retain yourself. And how do your feelings and if we feel unsafe and the refugee camp that was there was really, really hell for me and and for my sister as well.
Rachael: And you're 18 at this time.
Freddy: Yeah
Rachael: You’re really on the cusp of like, you're an adult, but you're also now orphaned. Your family's been killed.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: The genocide ends, at least that period of intense violence and peace starts to return. Do you trust it? What does that feel like? What do you do with that?
Freddy: This is good question. To set up the context here in Rwanda, as used to be before people lived side by side. Right after the genocide, the survivors also find themselves living side by side to perpetrators. And you can imagine this is really human - we didn't trust them. We didn't trust if they will not wake up in the morning and kill you again. So this have taken time. This have taken time because you come to understand even working at the memorial, the Kigali Genocide memorial have helped actually to understand how these have been built up and the fact that they've been also talking and releasing myself, my anger and my bad memory. But they've been helping actually in terms of a healing process. And then after like 10-17 years, the time I start talking actually about myself and this healing process, of course, I start actually believe that this is possible because it’s been so long. It’s uh, 30 years living together and without this animosity. I believe that peace is possible. Because yes I was a survivor. And I managed to go back to school and continue my school and finish it and I started the university and I finish it and start working with Aegis Trust and the Kigali Genocide Memorial. And I made the children and I came to conclusion that this is a safe place I'm living in. even if we still have perpetrators who’ve been involved into the killings, but there is safety that even the country have done a great job to make this country a safe place to live.
Rachael: One of your early jobs after you went to school, after the genocide is over and before you're working at Aegis Trust where you work now was that you spent time deeply immersed in radio reports and transcribing them and really kind of studying what propaganda was being spread
Freddy: Yeah
Rachael: that led to this genocide. So, I'm very curious. What made you feel like that was a healthy or necessary choice for you at that time? Because that's a lot to take on very early on post what your experience was.
Freddy: I was lucky when I was at school because actually I joined AERG, which is survivors organization, the student survivors organization. That's really, we've been working on the memory of genocide at the school. We've been educating ourselves. We've been supporting each other emotionally and economically and we've been really living together. And this association, I've been very supportive, and I've been the leading. Actually, I was one of the leaders on the national level. So I came to understand to build up the memory is to bring back those actually hatred messages that have been even spreading to radios and many other medias and newspapers and everything. So we've been transcribing actually those hatred messages, the propaganda messages. And the way you listen to that, the way you transcribe them. It helps you to really understand how the language, the toxic language have been used to convince people to turn against your neighbors. So this is I felt that's very, very important and completely different because it's very, very huge evidence that shows that people were committed to spread this hatred.
Rachael: Over the years, scholars have identified a ten stage process of genocide. So I'm just going to share a little bit about that. And the early ones are classification, symbolization and discrimination. And then comes dehumanization after that which has everything to do with words. And so, you know, in the case of the Holocaust, Jews were referred to as vermin. In Rwanda, you know, you told the story about your second grade teacher referring to you as cockroach or snake. I mean, young children. You know, as you just shared, there’s lots of other words that were used that were broadcasted in newspapers and radio reports, right? In some ways you're looking at the gatekeepers of journalism in those times.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And what this language does is it rallies extremists to literally make them feel like they're not killing human beings which helps with that disassociation. And I'm wondering how those words are handled in Rwandan society today. As far as I understand, even speaking about Hutus and Tutsis as separate groups isn't really tolerated in the country anymore, so where do those words exist in your culture right now?
Freddy: As I was transcribing these hatred and messages and the words from the radio - one of the radio, Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines - on the radio, you hear that the cockroaches need to be killed. They’re snakes. They are liars. The snakes need to be killed. And you have to kill a snake before it bite you. So all those words actually discriminate, but also dehumanize the Tutsis. So those words, even very good words that been used at the time of genocide, you cannot use today. You bring back some flashbacks. At the same time it's really getting some people feel very scary. Even if the meaning of the words that been used, like actually the word Interahamwe. Interahamwe is like working together. But the killers, the militias, they call themselves Interahamwe, actually working together group. And today, if you say that you're Interahamwe, they automatically they feel that you're a killer. Nobody wanted to be called a killer. Nobody want to be called Interahamwe. But this word, actually, it's slowly getting removed from our language because people are careful to say it because it completely now taking a completely different meaning. Immediately after genocide, I really had desire to understand what happened to us. Even myself I heard these messages that was broadcasted into radios. And I want really to understand and analyze and what motivation actually these people had to use these words.
Rachael: I want to complete the list just for listeners of the ten stage process of genocide so folks know what the rest of it is. So what comes after dehumanization, which got us into this conversation about words is organization, polarization, preparation, persecution, extermination.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And then the last one is denial. And I'm wondering if there is denial in Rwanda or is this accepted collective memory?
Freddy: It's huge and so many people, mainly those who've been involved in the killings, the perpetrators, mainly those who live abroad, who didn't have any real chance to come back and work with the Rwandan to rebuild the country, to rebuild their families and also to rebuild the fabric of the Rwandan society. The denial is very, very high. Also, these people who deny the genocide, they were not involved, but they just been a friend of who denied genocide and then become like a bigger denier than those who've been involved. and other people, they have different interests because we have people who fight for political interests. And then they try to deny genocide against Tutsi because he can or she can attract the Hutu to be on their side. All the reasons and all the ways they do it is they're destroying the society of Rwanda. But also it's make actually people unsafe. The fight is still long and it's unfortunate this is really happening.
Rachael: You've said that after the war, you thought that you would hate Hutus for the rest of your life.
Freddy: Yeah, yeah.
Rachael: But that's of course changed and now it's been 30 years, but immediately you had to start living side by side with them.
Freddy: Yeah
Rachael: So, I'm wondering what this integration was like in the beginning. And you mentioned that there is the issue of denial now, but are there other issues like identity issues that are still being worked out between Hutus and Tutsis, or has this been relatively resolved?
Rachael: Right after genocide we needed the people or someone to stand between perpetrators and survivors. Because ourselves, we were really thinking that the revenge is the way to do - is the way to go. And perpetrators, they were saying that we didn't finish our job. We need to continue this job and then finish it. And it was really mistrust between two people. So we were lucky to have a leadership that came in and say this is a time, of course, survivors you lost and become victims and you lost your relative. You lost everything. You lost hope. But at the same time, this is the time to bring back the society together. So the leadership of the country actually worked hard to stand between us. And this actually was the starting point. Slowly, slowly, people get to realize that you cannot be a survivor today and tomorrow become a perpetrator. You'll not be different from those who have done it before. Yes I know, they are not my friend and everything, but I'm not going to take a machete and kill them.
Rachael: So I'd love to talk about peace education, which. It's just a really beautiful thing. And before we go into it, I'm wondering if you could define that for us. What is peace education?
Freddy: I will describe Aegis Peace education is actually understanding what happened to you. Understanding what happened to other people. Understanding actually the mistakes of the past and learn how to deal with your present and your future. It's a lesson that teaches you who you are because one of the survivors say that if you knew me and you knew yourself, you don’t kill me. It's about understanding who you are and who other people are. It's about creating and developing skills of critical thinking, trying to analyze the situation you are in. And then it helps you to make a decision and right the decision. It's about creating empathy, going into someone else pain in their shoes and understand if their pain becomes your pain, you are able to make the right decision. You're no longer a bystander. You feel part of the problem and you feel part of the solution. It's about personal responsibility. Because once you think about a situation critically and you think about it with empathy, you're able to make right decision. And the decision you make, you're really responsible for that decision and you’re really responsible for your actions. So peace education program helps people to be human again. It's an education that made even the perpetrators to lay down their weapons. I'm talking about the weapons of their hearts. I'm talking about physical weapons. Lay down their weapons and they become peacemakers. And lay down their anger, their hatred, their actually way of living with discriminating people. And they become more inclusive and become more understanding of diversity. And they become more understanding how to make this world a better place to live is to live together and to live in harmony.
Rachael: I'm going to take that, what you just so beautifully said and shared with us, and I'm going to put myself back in Rwanda where I came for my first time, like, I guess a year and a half ago now in September 2022. That was my inauguration onto the board of Aegis Trust, which you are the CEO of. And for folks who don't know what Aegis Trust is, it's a nonprofit that works to prevent genocide and mass atrocities. And one of those methods is through the peace education that you just described.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And so while in Rwanda, I had one of the most profound experiences of my life because you and your team took us to a village that's using this peace education model. And they had just like the most amazing reception for us -
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: us visitors. And there was music and dancing as we entered this little school. And waiting for us was this really kind community of people. And some of them were survivors of the genocide, having lost much of their family and others were perpetrators.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And we were able to hear testimony or some sharing from both groups of people. Some of those perpetrators, what they shared, as they told us their story, was like they were actually able to look to their neighbors and say, if it wasn't for me, their uncle or their father or their sister might be alive right now. And I have a close friend and colleague who I work with sometimes, and I'm the granddaughter of Holocaust survivor and she's the granddaughter of an SS officer. So, you know, according to history, different sides. And when we speak together on stage, people will often come to us and just be like, it's so amazing that you do this. And, and I appreciate that. But I also, if I'm being very honest, find it a little silly because we're like more than half a century away from the violence. Neither of us were there. We’re just two young people who got interested in our family histories and decided to write books about them. And here I was, sitting in this village really actually looking at people who had one being perpetrator, one being victim, sitting side by side, sharing, learning together, being together. And then when they started touring us around, I learned that the survivors are actually helping build a house for some of the perpetrators. I mean, the world needs that story. And I just want you to tell us more about this village and how did you help make this happen? And what are you seeing this peace education do like on the ground in these places where people are healing together.
Freddy: The village you visited is one of the villages that really came up from the effort of this kind of program of peace and peace education. And this is actually the practical example of impact of peace education in which actually gives hope that when you teach people, they can even put in practice what you teach them. One of the survivor, her name is Maria. She lost her seven children. And the person who killed – who are among the people who came to kill the children - his name is Philbert. He's living – actually they live side by side, and they've become friends. So, it's not easy to comprehend, I'm sorry. But it's really practical example of how this process of healing, process of understanding, go into someone's shoes, into someone's pain. It works. And this actually gives hope to humanity. If you killed my children, you killed not only one, not two, not three, seven children and I’m still talking to you and I’ll still build your house and I’ll still actually wishing you good life shows that there's a hope in this world. That all the atrocities that happened can be healed. What happening in different part of the world, is it possible to heal it? It's just people to start thinking and have a hope that this discrimination, that atrocities that happened, that hatred that is going on in the world. There is a way they can be stopped. There's a way we can actually live in a peaceful world.
Rachael: You yourself have spent time with the group of people who killed your family, right?
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: What was that like for you? I imagine the experience has been part of what's led you to this work that you're doing now. But how were you able to work through that collective blame? Was it a forgiveness or acceptance? A little bit of both? I’m just curious about that experience as you experienced it then, but also as you reflect on it now.
Freddy: This is an experience that very difficult to describe because you don't know how to call it. You don't know how to describe it, but it's a huge transformation that finding the person who I was right after genocide and today is a completely different person. And this has been into process because forgiveness, it takes really long. It takes time. It’s personal. It took me more than 17 years to get to where I am today. I couldn't believe that I would be even I'd be able to talk to a Hutu person, but at some point of time, I felt the transformation and I think I choose and I made the right decision to make a peace. Because we feel that as survivors, if you don't make that decision, you actually, what you’re doing, you’re perpetrating the cycle of violence. The cycle will never end. So it's about right choice. It’s a right decision. It’s about even trying to look forward and say, how can I contribute to save the world is even to look into my mirror and say, Freddy, you have to live, but you don't have to be perpetrator. You have to be peaceful. And the only way to do it is to sacrifice your feeling and at some point, your anger become positive feeling so that your children can live in this world in a peaceful way. My children should not be ashamed to be called my children. Because I've seen so many perpetrators who their children, they feel they have to change their names because they don't want to be associated to their fathers and to their relatives’ name. So by making that choice of peace and harmony with my neighbors, I've actually since then, I felt much more healing in my heart. I felt much more easy to think or to do things that was not able to do. And I feel that very much is life after the forgiving my perpetrators. It's a process. It's individual. It’s personal. And I think once you've done it, you're a completely different person.
Rachael: It reminds me of a quote that I saw from one of the students of the peace education work that you do who also lost his family. And he said, today I cancel my revenge.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: And I think about that line every day. It's like buried itself in my body. And I just think about how different the whole world would be. Like we have conflicts in every corner of the world right now that are increasingly violent, and the ripple effects of those conflicts are also increasingly violent in the societies that aren't even experiencing the war themselves. And I just think that line like, today I cancel my revenge. That's a choice. Like we could actually do that today, you don't need to wait.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: This world is very heavy these days and working in this field, it can take a toll on you, right? Like sitting inside all the radio reports you did.
Freddy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rachael: Sitting in the museums, like, day in, day out, being asked to tell your story over and over again. And I think that we can become quite hardened to the horror or desensitized in a way. And you're working with this story of losing your parents and your sisters and your whole family and your community. And I'm wondering, I guess the question is twofold. How has your like your ability to emotionally be a part of this work changed over the years? And I'm curious if becoming a father and becoming a husband, if that changed your relationship to your own history.
Freddy: When I become orphan, my focus was, oh, I lost my mother, I lost my father, I lost my sisters. And who I am to survive without them. Even I start blaming myself and say why didn’t I take my little sister and we run together. Why didn’t I take her to being hide together when they attacked my house? Why didn’t I ask Jean Pierre to go and at least pick one of them and we can be together in hiding. You blame yourself. And you feel heavy. And you feel really, you know, why should I live? Why should I be alive? I had the conversation with my mum, actually the last word with my mum was, she asked me - this is in our local language - to be a man. To have the value. To stand and to stand up for a cause and to stand up even if you're alone, you can stand for others. That's actually the meaning of it. So this word come to my mind all the time that actually I would try it when I talked to parents because we have a parents education program. Talk to your kids. They will remember what you said. And try to give them values that will encourage them in the future. And I give these words from my mom, which really catalyzed me to, to keep my life. So becoming a father, I'm no longer thinking about I'm an orphan, I’m vulnerable. I feel that I'm a father. I'm strong. I have to raise my children. And I have five children today. And my aim was to say my kids will stand, actually, in a space of people I lost. But at the same time. And understand for themselves as well. So now I'm not standing alone. We are standing as six people. Including my wife, were seven people standing in their place. So we feel the healing. You feel that absence is gone. My sons are still very young. They’re nine months, two years and half and eight years old. But my daughter actually telling teenagers and all the complexity of raising teenagers as well, it's coming up now. But I feel very proud. I feel very strong at this time. I feel transformed as I mentioned. Being father is something important because I feel my empty tank now is getting filled. It’s getting full.
Rachael: Uh, beautiful. I think that is such a beautiful place to leave the conversation. Thank you.
Freddy: Yeah.
Rachael: Thank you.
Freddy: Thank you very much. Thank you.
OUTRO
You’ve been listening to Along The Seam. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend, rating the show and leaving a review. For more about our guest, please visit alongtheseam.com. And while there, don’t forget to sign up for the Along The Seam newsletter which is my place of creative writing where I dig deeper into the stories and themes you hear on these episodes. You can also find a link to that in the show notes.
This season is supported with help from The Witness Institute and New America. A big thank you to both organizations.
Our editor is Lene Bech Sillesen and the music is from Blue Dot Sessions.
I’m Rachael Cerrotti. Thanks for joining the conversation.