Along The Seam, Season 2

Kenny Andejeski

INTRO 

Hey Everyone. Welcome back to Along The Seam. I’m Rachael Cerrotti

Today I’m in conversation with Kenny Andejski. A community builder who is living in Chattanooga, Tennessee. He’s extensively traveled throughout the United States collecting stories from rural America. 

I met Kenny like a decade ago when we were both working with a teen travel program in Western Massachusetts. Over the years we’ve followed each other’s travels and careers, and every so often we find ourselves crossing paths. In November, which amazingly is like six months ago now, Kenny passed through Portland, Maine and we got together to have this conversation. We talked about how the stories we tell ourselves on a community level and on a personal level, can make it hard to grow and progress. If you listened to the previous episode where I talked with Micaela Blei about performing personal storytelling on stage, this conversation will feel like a natural follow up. 

We recorded this conversation on November 21, 2023. Enjoy meeting my friend, Kenny.

CONVERSATION

Rachael: Okay. And this is where I look like I'm professional cause I'm adjusting the levels and it looks like I know what I'm doing, but I'm just really trying to make the-

Kenny: Use more technical jargon.

Rachael: Yeah, there's umm levels, and it umm measures sound. 

Kenny: Mmm. Wavelength? Frequency?

Rachael: Yeah, see you know more than I do. Today we are in Portland, Maine, but you currently live in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Tell me about what brought you there and what's kept you there. 

Kenny: So my relationship with Chattanooga actually began when I was 19. I was on a road trip from suburban Chicago, where I grew up to North Florida, where I was visiting my college roommate. And it was like 7 a.m. in the morning and I came off the South Cumberland Plateau into Nicajak Lake and I saw mountains for the first time. Growing up in the Midwest, it was a concept at best for me. And I saw mountains for the first time and the horizon disappeared, and I was confused and overwhelmed. I was like, Where am I? What happened? I can't see where I'm going anymore? A bit dramatic, but five minutes later, ten minutes later, I was in Chattanooga. And so there was just like a stamp, like a memory stamp from that experience. And then fast forward to 2019. I was doing a lot of travel throughout the country and I ended up in Appalachia in the South for most of 2019. And somehow Chattanooga ended up being a crossroads for me again and again as I moved throughout that part of the country. And then in winter of 2021, the winter spike, the pandemic, I was at home in rural Wisconsin in my grandmother's basement, and I was just like, I have to get out and I want to go somewhere that I can make an impact, especially in a plac-based context and work on a regional scale. And Chattanooga just made complete sense. But an interesting fact about Chattanooga that I learned once I moved there from my father and this is kind of indicative of how my family tells its stories. It took me moving there in my early 30s to learn that that side of the family had worked on the Tennessee Valley Authority dams that made Chattanooga a city, that powered Chattanooga, that have developed that region economically and geographically. And I don't understand why it wasn't something that we learned growing up.

Rachael: Growing up in suburban Chicago, can you just take me through a little bit of your background? 

Kenny: Yeah. I grew up in a white, middle working class family, but outside of that, I didn't really have any cultural or ethnic heritage to speak of. Like, I grew up a white American and my family was predominantly apathetic and agnostic. I ended up being confirmed Catholic, but that didn't really mean anything to me. I played a lot of sports growing up. Those were the groups that I found connection and belonging to. I found purpose within, either competing or trying to find excellence through that environment. And so by the time I got to college, I didn't really have a clear purpose. I didn't really have a clear understanding of who I was based on the family that I grew up in. Very much a blended family dynamic. And a few other bullet points within that is my parents collectively had had four divorces. And one of my most dreaded first date questions historically is around siblings because when someone asks me that, I have to be like, well, I'm a middle youngest, oldest and only child.

Rachael: You and I have spoken in the past about how you don't really know where you come from and being that this is a space where we like to have conversations about how important it is where we come from and how it impacts us, I think this conversation or this space of not knowing has just as much impact as knowing. 

Kenny: Yeah. Uhm we didn't have the strong traditions or rituals or understanding of where our family came from that was passed around. We didn't have stories, oral histories that were really important to us. To go on like a quick ancestry tour. My last name, Andejeski - it's an immigration name, as I understand it. It traces back to Cincinnati, Ohio, in the late 19th century. But I grew up thinking it was Polish. And then earlier this year, one of my cousins was like, actually, I think it's German. And I went to my aunt who's like our informal matriarch now and I was like, do you know? And she's like, Nope. So - even from that core understanding - and even at my grandmother's wake last year, my nana’s wake, she was the last of the four grandparents to pass away. I came to the realization, understanding that I might be the only person that can carry forward our name. And I don't even know what that means to me. But prior to moving in Chattanooga, when I was in my grandmother's basement in rural Wisconsin and like this is like middle of winter, three immunocompromised older adults. I was spending like three to four to five days on end just like in a basement, like working part time on a social media project. So, like, wasn't good for my mental health either. But the basement also has like hundreds of family photos of people that I don't even know about. And like, that's where I sleep on like an old dilapidated pullout couch kind of thing. But one of the walls on there has a bunch of awards that my grandfather received. And in those few years that I lived with my grandparents in between the house that, you know, I had my earliest memories and the house that I grew up in with my stepfamily. My grandfather was like my primary father figure growing up. He was always there for me. He made it to like 97 of my 98 career football games. He had a heart attack for the one that he missed, but he was a like small business entrepreneur and highly engaged civically. He was a park district commissioner for 20 years in his small suburban community outside Chicago. And those plaques like his awards and acknowledgments were on the wall there. And like maybe as a couple of months in that I started to like really consider how him as like my role model growing up actually really instilled a lot of values and ambition within me.

Rachael: I'm wondering if this question mark of where do I come from and then what do I do with that, was that something that you thought much about as a kid? Or is that something that's emerged more deeply as an adult where you work with other communities and you try to understand who they are and how they relate to other people? So how has this grown for you as the years have gone on? 

Kenny: Honestly, I think it first showed up as a void for me. Umm, there was this, like, emptiness that I really felt and experienced growing up. There was dinner table conversation. I was like 8 or 9 where I like tried to ask my mom and stepdad like what's the meaning of life? And then, like, unfortunately, a year or two later, I tried to take my life for the first time. And that's just like a part of my story that I have to share again and again. Because, like, I don't know how a 9 or 10 year old can come to that conclusive thought. But I know that that defined who I am today. And I think it was because I was searching for answers that I didn't have. Like, I just - I've seen so many peers in their families and the things that they did as infants and children to feel a connectedness to where they come from, their culture, their people, that I have don't have an experience with. So it showed up as a void early on in my life and I realized I could fill that void. That's where the sports came in. Like, I found team and I found belonging and purpose and connection and, like, we're in solidarity with each other as we try to accomplish this arbitrary goal of scoring more points than the other team. And then I think eventually it extended to my work when I realized there was more to life than sports. And my education started to inform me, my experiences started to inform me. And then I realized that I could find some sense of fulfillment and belonging in pursuing that kind of career.

Rachael: You made a comment when you talked about first trying to take your life and you feel like you've to say it. What compels you to say like, no, these are things that I need to like, have out in the open about myself, whether it's in a professional setting or a personal setting. Tell me a bit about that if you're comfortable.

Kenny: Yeah. Ooh. I think, first and foremost, there's like the need and desire to be seen and heard. Being a white American male, there's mental health stigma as well. Making these things known makes it so I'm more assured that I can be seen. Like I need to verbalize it and make it visible so that it's like, hey, as we interact, I want you to know this about me because it's not inherently assumed that I've had these experiences, that I've gone through this. And so it's become a defense mechanism to bring those things up. I also think it's a way to relate to people because then we are able to go layers deeper in our connections where it isn't just solely identity based, which I think is an American cultural challenge. As I've traveled a lot where you find connection with people just over shared experience or curiosity or interaction. You know, we really have a strong challenge of identity in our culture and our society based on the structures and systems we’ve set up historically. And so we can often get stuck there in our interactions with one another. So if we don't make known what is beneath the surface then that can become a barrier. And then I think the final thing for me is those experiences have given me an incredible capacity for empathy because I know what I have been through. And so I can presumably hold space for someone else in what they've been through. And I see that again and again as a facilitator, as someone who just builds relationships in many different contexts. By having that understanding of myself and being transparent and forthcoming about it, I can often find that connection and cohesion and solidarity with other people where it's like what you've been through really matters and I hope you can hold that for yourself just as I try to hold that for myself. 

Rachael: You write about yourself that your exploration of what unites and divides us - and here's a quote, “was catalyzed by my experiences as a bright child who struggled with mental and social health. While growing up in a tumultuous home environment within a community that portrayed a different, more harmonious reality. At a young age, I became acutely aware of the difference between my experience and what I perceived that I lacked in my upbringing. That dissonance set me on a lifelong path of seeking out ways to cultivate belonging for myself and eventually others.” And so I'm wondering if you can kind of unpack that for us and then take us into this space of how this plays into your work.

Kenny: This goes back to that void that I think I experienced growing up, where I just had such a dissonance between like I'm experiencing things and I'm perceiving them and I'm trying to understand them. I grew up in a really nice suburban community that, like, there was plenty of family dysfunction in different households and a lot of that came to bear. Like you learned about this issue and this issue and all these different instances. But I spent so much time trying to fit in, trying to understand why everyone's lives were better than mine and feeling guilty around not being able to change that for myself. And having to hold that tension at such a young age is something that allows me to do the work that I do today. I'm really focused on like social cohesion or civic health or belonging, seeing how we can create the conditions for people regardless of their identities, regardless of their beliefs, regardless of their actions, like how we can actually create the conditions for people to coexist in a really effective engaged way, not in a passive way. Especially today, where we face this big challenge, we can call it the culture wars, there just is not a lot of space for complexity and nuance in how we engage in issues and topics and beliefs and ideologies with each other. One of the framings or mantras that I hold for myself is like we become the stories we tell ourselves. And that is something that I’ve had a reckoning with lately around how always leading with like the nine year old that tried to end their life is something that is really defining of like one's perception of self and psyche. And even as I tell the story of my family and my relationship with my parents and how difficult it is to hold and navigate those things, there is a reinforcing nature of talking about them that I'm still trying to wrap my head around. And you can see it in the mental health crisis that we just have more broadly, especially as we get older. Just more and more you see people stuck in their ways or reinforcing these behaviors or unable to move from the position they're in. There's a cement that we're like getting stuck in. We're setting in. 

Rachael: Can you give me some examples of what it means to be engaged in that real way and not in a passive way? 

Kenny: I think one of the most accessible is around dialogue. If someone were to ask themselves the honest question of how often they talk to someone who has different beliefs or values than them, and like they were taking inventory of that, many of us are poor in that regard. Supporting organizations or facilitating interventions or developing and implementing programs that create the opportunity for people to do that is something I've focused on a lot. There is the aspect of like civic health where a challenge of how we try to uphold democracy in this country is like your vote as the end all be all engagement and there's a lot of other opportunities to inform our civic and political landscape that just either aren't known or aren't accessible or aren't exciting for folks. And working, especially at the local level or the place-based level within the context that people live, creating opportunities for people to engage and inform the policy in their communities or actively transform their communities through, like, direct action of painting the street or talking to business owners, starting an event - seeing and supporting a lot of those efforts. And one thing I hold is like, if I expect someone else to care about my heart and mind, I have to care about theirs. And I need to demonstrate that upfront before I can expect that in return.

Rachael: Part of your recent work history is that you spent many months, I believe, driving around rural America when Trump was in office, right? Trying to understand what a lot of the political divides were and how communities can build around that. What have you seen in the rest of America? Broad question - the rest of America. Take me somewhere. 

Kenny: I'll take you somewhere. 

Rachael: Okay.

Kenny: Before, I traveled throughout rural America. I was in Detroit during the bankruptcy. I moved there during the bankruptcy to do nonprofit consulting and community economic development. In the time I spent there, the three years that I spent there, it is one of the best communities I've ever been a part of because the people that are there have done without for so long. And there's a pride and a solidarity and an understanding of why that is their home, why it's multi-generational, why it’s like - the cohesion exists there, despite the structural and systemic issues that make it such a difficult place to live for so many people. Like people still show up for each other. And I was there when the election occurred and I had like that 2 a.m. epiphany moment of like, I found this here, I can find this anywhere. We don't understand each other across this nation. And I'm going to go to different communities and see what they're doing to cause social cohesion. And so I traveled to all 50 states. I engaged with hundreds of community leaders in the years during the Trump administration. And on the local level, you could always find people trying to make a positive impact on their communities. I found that everywhere. And I started figuring out ways to support people and engage and amplify their work.

Rachael: How important do you think it is that we actually understand each other in order to have a strong community? Do we have to understand each other or do we have to just be okay that we don't understand each other?

Kenny: The first thing is to understand yourself and understand like what your biases are, where your triggers are, where your ignorance lies, and then to - if you have those interpersonal relationships, that's where the bridging really comes into play, I think, of like wanting to do better for another person because you care about them. And therefore you acknowledge where your knowledge begins and ends. You acknowledge what aspects of their experience you can understand and what aspects you can't. It takes a lot to hold space for people. There's this dynamic tension between like held space and safe space. I think because of how many people in groups are threatened in society and what they experience as like perceived and real threats, both, there's this desire to have safe spaces. And in safe spaces you might not be able to approach growth or conflict, healthy conflict, especially because there are all these predetermined rules and guidelines. On the other side of that, I really firmly believe in held spaces where the container is set. Like we have come to this 60 minute conversation - a podcast is a held space. You know, like we've come to this 60 minute conversation to talk about this issue that affects both you and I, but in different ways. And we are making a commitment to ensuring that both of us have an experience that doesn't hurt us here. And I think there's a greater calling of the participants and also allows for more authentic and vulnerable space to be held as a result of that. There's so many steps that we have to go down, because if we’re bridging perspectives, it's within groups, not just across groups. It's not just identity, it's not just ideology. It's the experience you have in your own community, whether you're at the top of the hill or the bottom of the hill. And there's so many skills we have to develop around being able to listen to someone without judgment or to not map our experience along theirs or to not seek to relate to them too quickly. To, like, minimize their experiences. Oh yeah, me too. Me too. I totally have that. Okay, well, thanks for listening, but –

Rachael: That's when I've really had to practice 

Kenny: Same

Rachael: Cause it’s like a desire to connect. 

Kenny: Yeah. 

Rachael: I want to go back to this trip that you did around rural America during the Trump presidency. I believe you were driving around the states. I'd love to know what you learned. Can you tell me a story of that time?

Kenny: It's important to note that, like, as I traveled throughout the country over those three years, a few things - one is, I did it many different ways. I took Amtrak for a month. I did cross-country road trips. I also only paid for lodging maybe a month in those three years because of the generosity of people. There was a vulnerability and there was a privilege for the way that I went about doing my work. I was hosted by local community members and they were my access points in South Bend, Indiana, in northeast Tennessee, in northwest Arkansas. And, I just had a place to stay and I was like, hey, is there anyone I should meet here? And then those people introduced me. I think the - the complexity of stories that I hold in northwest Arkansas - I was hosted by extended family there and I got to meet a lot of tremendous folks in that community. I met probably like 25 people. And I got to hear their different experiences. But at the same time, I was hearing my own family members and they had been there for 50 years. They were very conservative, they had a strong connection to place. They had 50 acres out there and they really cared and believed in the life that they had led. They also had had a lot of challenges, interpersonal challenges during the Trump era as ardent Trump supporters. They would bring up the stories multiple times around how, like, a relationship had fallen apart, or how they didn't understand what had gone wrong. And for me, that like mapped as trauma of, like, the interpersonal dynamics had had really left an impression on them and them not realizing maybe the perception or reality of harm they were causing other communities. But, fast forward to, well, now we're going backwards, but to January 6th. And I saw an image of those family members at the Capitol and I had to hold the complexity of the people that had given me hospitality and hosted me and, like, are people that I care about that have played a role in my upbringing. I got bit by a bunch of fire ants and had a crush on one of the nursery hands when I was seven. They were there and that was how they were expressing their values. I also, to go back to their ancestry part, found out during that visit with them that my maternal grandmother’s side of the family are Daughters of the Revolution. They have that lineage. They connect all the way back there. And I found that out from my family that was at the Capitol on January 6th. So having to hold what their experiences and their view is of America and how they seek to uphold those values is something that I can't disregard. But also an hour and a half down the road is Harrison, Arkansas. And there's a 2017 article by Slate that named it the most racist town in America because of a history of racial incidents and because there's a chapter of the KKK that's active like ten miles outside of town. It's like 10,000 people, 90% white. Traditional like southern town square kind of county dynamic. And I went there to interview members of the Racial Equity Task Force. And I went there and I met two of them, and they were just like, you know, an incident has come up, we do our best to address them and we really want this to be a community where everyone feels like they can belong. This was, you know, early 2019. Fast forward to June 2020. Our media - media machine doing what it does. There was a viral video from Harrison, Arkansas of someone standing at a gas station with a Black Lives Matter sign and then like a bunch of people harassing them as they drove by, like, get out of here, like da da da da. And at the same time, I saw a Facebook post from one of the members of that task force, Daniella, who is a mixed race black woman. And she had led a Black Lives Matter rally in the heart of that town. About 100 people showed up and they had some protesters, but they shouted them down and like solidarity was expressed within that community, but that story wasn't told. It didn't fit the narrative of rural America or of America that allows for us to just acknowledge that it's difficult and that some people are doing their best. And if we supported them more effectively, maybe more people could feel as though they belong or can be engaged in that kind of work.

Rachael: The way that we look for confirmation bias about certain communities, the way that we're seeking ways to fill out a narrative. We so expect the divisiveness that we're almost seeking to confirm it, rather than fix it. I'm going to end on this idea of the stories we tell ourselves because our stories keep changing as we change. And it’s the great gift of time. You say that not only do the stories we tell ourselves define us and the way we walk through the world, but it's also what we focus on that grows. If we're telling negative stories about ourselves, we're going to grow those negative thoughts in different ways. And I’m very curious what stories you’re practicing with yourself, right now, right? There's the stories we have ingrained and then there's the stories that we're trying to get out of the habit of telling ourselves. So I'm curious what your practice is. Which story you're working on.

Kenny: There's a lot that I'm working through. First and foremost, a big challenge I see for my peers that are like advocating for these different cultural changes and different ways of relating with each other is, many of us struggle with our most immediate relationships in this regard. Like, we haven't solved it ourselves. In confidence, there's so many conversations we had where it's like my uncle and I don't get along or I can't talk to my mom anymore or my daughter won't pick up the phone. And so the stories around the closest relationships in my life, I think are ones that I'm practicing. My relationships with my own parents - I do hold a lot of my childhood experience against them and doing it in a way that is, I guess like in integrity yet not in resentment or doesn't grow that resentment within me is something that I'm really practicing. Also, something that I think allows me to do this work and goes back to, you know, mental health issues that I faced from a very young age is around self-worth. Umm, one thing that allows me to like, show up every day in this work is that I don't think I'm more important than anyone. I don't think I'm any more significant than anyone else. But, I do seek to continue improving my relationship of self-worth and really valuing myself intrinsically and inherently, because I think there's a selfless nature to this work. I came to this work because it was an external solution to an internal problem. And, you know, maybe it's possible to do both. So I'm holding that and trying to to change the way that I talk to myself in those regards.

Rachael: Thank you so much.

Kenny: You're welcome, Rachael.

OUTRO

You’ve been listening to Along The Seam. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend, rating the show and leaving a review. For more about our guest, please visit alongtheseam.com. And while there, don’t forget to sign up for the Along The Seam newsletter which is my place of creative writing where I dig deeper into the stories and themes you hear on these episodes. You can also find a link to that in the show notes.  

This season is supported with help from The Witness Institute and New America. A big thank you to both organizations. 

Our editor is Lene Bech Sillesen and the music is from Blue Dot Sessions.

I’m Rachael Cerrotti. Thanks for joining the conversation.